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Post by oldarmybear on Jan 23, 2020 19:26:31 GMT -5
The Federalist Papers are a collection of articles written by three of our founding fathers in support of the new Constitution of the United States. This kink goe to wiki for an expanded article with links to each of those papers. Follow this link to Wiki and the the links to each of the 85 Federalist Papers. Enjoy, read and learn... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jan 24, 2020 13:27:49 GMT -5
The Federalist Papers are a collection of articles written by three of our founding fathers in support of the new Constitution of the United States. This kink goe to wiki for an expanded article with links to each of those papers. Follow this link to Wiki and the the links to each of the 85 Federalist Papers. Enjoy, read and learn... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers The Federalist Papers were written by three New Yorkers -- Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay-- who were urging their state to ratify the Constitution. Not to put too fine a point on it but they were not laying out foundational principles. Madison, for example, was nervous about "rule-by-majority" and argued for a "commercial-republic"; Hamilton fretted about the "Bill of Rights" (see below from the Wikipedia essay you referenced) and urged it be rejected. He also laid out philosophical justifications for "judicial-review of legislation by the federal judiciary"; Jay mused about the "dangers from foreign force and influence" . For the "small-government" advocates on this board, The Federalist Papers are not a call for making the American federal government (as created in the Constitution all three gentlemen had a hand in framing, I hasten to point out) weak, but precisely the opposite. Ironic to the "Second Amendment" topic, which arouses so much vitriol on "Speakurmind": " The Federalist Papers (specifically Federalist No. 84) are notable for their opposition to what later became the United States Bill of Rights. The idea of adding a Bill of Rights to the Constitution was originally controversial because the Constitution, as written, did not specifically enumerate or protect the rights of the people, rather it listed the powers of the government and left all that remained to the states and the people. Alexander Hamilton, the author of Federalist No. 84, feared that such an enumeration, once written down explicitly, would later be interpreted as a list of the only rights that people had."[ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers]
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Post by oldarmybear on Jan 24, 2020 15:20:22 GMT -5
The bill of rights does not put limitations on we, the people. It limits government interference in our lives.
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jan 25, 2020 10:34:12 GMT -5
The bill of rights does not put limitations on we, the people. It limits government interference in our lives. I don't disagree. On the other hand, the Federalist Papers -- the topic of this thread you began -- isn't a manifesto for a weak federal government, but the opposite.
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Post by oldarmybear on Jan 25, 2020 12:18:28 GMT -5
The federal government is limited (allegedly) to the 18 items listed in article 1 section 8 of the constitution. Everything else is in the purview of states rights.
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Post by oldarmybear on Jan 25, 2020 12:30:11 GMT -5
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch Section 8 - Powers of Congress <<Back | Table of Contents | Next>> The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; To establish Post Offices and Post Roads; To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations; To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. Notes for this section: Citizenship The Draft FAQ: What can't Congress do? FAQ: Why was the power to coin money given to the Federal Government? FAQ: Who can declare war? usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jan 25, 2020 14:21:20 GMT -5
The federal government is limited (allegedly) to the 18 items listed in article 1 section 8 of the constitution. Everything else is in the purview of states rights. Article I, Section 8 begins with a positive command: "The Congress shall have Power...". and then describes the power in eighteen clauses, each of which begin with an emphatic command itself: "to" do something or other. From them thousands of implied powers have made it into American jurisprudence and governance. For the record, you won't find the minutia of American culture or jurisprudence listed in the Constitution. Thousands of those details are not specifically mentioned. For example: who's allowed to use drinking-fountains, where a citizen can sit in a bus, which bathroom a citizen may use, the gender of a citizen's spouse, "the right to vote", the Air-Force, a national anthem, a pledge-of-allegiance, "It's a free country", "innocent until proven guilty", "of the people, by the people and for the people", immigration, capitalism and the like. Nary a mention. But, by-golly, we've got 'em anyway, eh? In any case, the "Federalist Papers" do not make a case for a weak federal government -- just the opposite.
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jan 25, 2020 14:29:25 GMT -5
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch Section 8 - Powers of Congress <<Back | Table of Contents | Next>> The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; To establish Post Offices and Post Roads; To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court; To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations; To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces; To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. Notes for this section: Citizenship The Draft FAQ: What can't Congress do? FAQ: Why was the power to coin money given to the Federal Government? FAQ: Who can declare war? usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html Lest we ignore the last power Congress shall have: "...To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof." That covers a lot of ground, eh?
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Post by george on Jan 25, 2020 17:21:09 GMT -5
Federalist paper #52. Madison was worried about too many legislators equating to tyranny, and tyranny by too many not being able to make decisions. He has been proven quite correct.
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jan 26, 2020 0:30:30 GMT -5
Federalist paper #52. Madison was worried about too many legislators equating to tyranny, and tyranny by too many not being able to make decisions. He has been proven quite correct. Wherefore this "tyranny", then? I would argue that the rights and privileges of American citizenship have ever been, and continue to be, expanded, not diminished. Women's suffrage, voting rights, racially neutral access to public accommodations, transportation and schools, marriage equality, speech (we're using one of its most robust expansions right now), travel and nearly unfettered ownership and use of private firearms, come to mind.
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Post by katie5445 on Jan 27, 2020 22:23:46 GMT -5
I cant' disagree those are rights but I disagree that all Americans have attained that status.
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jan 27, 2020 23:00:32 GMT -5
I cant' disagree those are rights but I disagree that all Americans have attained that status. No argument from me. It's no secret, either, there is an element in America -- encouraged by the highest government, religious and institutional officials (elected and appointed) -- who yearn to reverse them. Some of them post to this forum, too. Sad.
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Post by katie5445 on Jan 27, 2020 23:27:27 GMT -5
What is especially sad is those who deny what does exist.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 8:10:47 GMT -5
What is especially sad is those who deny what does exist. Just because something EXISTS, doesn't make it right or legitimate. On YOUR stated basis then, are YOU going to say RAPE, MURDER, PEDOPHILIA, INXCEST etc are legitimate and right, simply because THEY EXIST?
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Post by tubaornottuba on Jan 29, 2020 12:40:11 GMT -5
What is especially sad is those who deny what does exist. Just because something EXISTS, doesn't make it right or legitimate. On YOUR stated basis then, are YOU going to say RAPE, MURDER, PEDOPHILIA, INXCEST etc are legitimate and right, simply because THEY EXIST? Huh? That's absurd. The OP didn't claim any crime was righteous "....simply because they exist".
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