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Post by argy on Jun 19, 2021 19:20:05 GMT -5
There has been a fair bit of discussion about homosexuality in different threads of this forum. Several Catholics have called it "abominable", "intrinsically disordered", etc..
Here is an article about a gay priest who worked for many years in the Vatican.
Lepore, the subject of the article, estimates that 80 per cent of the Vatican staff are gay. This is no revelation, there are myriad accounts from "insiders" that reflect the same thing.
This would not be controversial if it wasn't for the hypocrisy of the practising homosexuals within the Vatican. They engage in gay sex, fall in love and have affairs with fellow priests and bishops. They then sit in judgement of others outside the church, denouncing sex outside marriage, ruling on women's reproductive rights and pronouncing homosexuality as an abomination and intrinsically disordered.
What do the "holier than thou" religious folk like wale64 and his ilk on this forum think about this?
Do you understand how such hypocrisy creates a strong negative perception of the church within the wider community.
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Post by argy on Jun 21, 2021 21:53:45 GMT -5
Well, let's face it. They are in violation of their oath of celibacy and their homosexual "activities".
As you said, they cannot be trusted.
If you found out the Pope was gay and had practised/ is practising homosexual sex, would you still homosexuals cannot be trusted?
If he Pope is homosexual, he would be in violation of the Doctrine
And could not be trusted?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2021 22:03:05 GMT -5
If he Pope is homosexual, he would be in violation of the Doctrine
And could not be trusted?
I don't trust him now because of some of the things he has said. What is your point?
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Post by argy on Jun 21, 2021 23:49:21 GMT -5
And could not be trusted?
I don't trust him now because of some of the things he has said. What is your point?
Fair enough. According to your church he's Christ's representative here on earth... and you don't trust him.
I'll make an atheist of you yet!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2021 7:16:09 GMT -5
I don't trust him now because of some of the things he has said. What is your point?
Fair enough. According to your church he's Christ's representative here on earth... and you don't trust him.
I'll make an atheist of you yet!
And in YOUR MIND you think you've broken the Catholic Church.......NOT. He is NOT Christ's representative BUT he is the leader of the Catholic church , and at one time all Christendom. You re an idiot!
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Post by argy on Jun 22, 2021 7:18:33 GMT -5
It's amazing that an atheist knows more about your church than you do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2021 7:21:52 GMT -5
It's amazing that an atheist knows more about your church than you do. No you really don't and prove that by your idiotic comments!
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Post by burke on Jun 22, 2021 7:32:21 GMT -5
Fair enough. According to your church he's Christ's representative here on earth... and you don't trust him.
I'll make an atheist of you yet!
And in YOUR MIND you think you've broken the Catholic Church.......NOT. He is NOT Christ's representative BUT he is the leader of the Catholic church , and at one time all Christendom. You re an idiot!
The church teaches that the pope is Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth. The Church teaches that, while he is elected by the College of Cardinals, he is actually chosen by the Holy Spirit. You should learn to swim before you jump into the deep end.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2021 8:54:16 GMT -5
And in YOUR MIND you think you've broken the Catholic Church.......NOT. He is NOT Christ's representative BUT he is the leader of the Catholic church , and at one time all Christendom. You re an idiot!
The church teaches that the pope is Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth. The Church teaches that, while he is elected by the College of Cardinals, he is actually chosen by the Holy Spirit. You should learn to swim before you jump into the deep end. You are sore because your "explanation" about giving up freedom to get comfortable falls flatYOU shouldn't take you negative feelings on having been shown you have traded SOME freedom to be comfortable as YOU see it with Canadian health and transfer to THIS topic! Now as to your comment above: "..In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. .." www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm
The Pope is the leader as commissioned by Christ BUT "The Bible says of Jesus that there is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12). There is only one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). We can now see that there is no biblical foundation for claiming to be a representative of Christ on earth" www.gotquestions.org/vicar-of-Christ.html
Can YOU provide a scriptural citation that shows Jesus specifically stating Peter and his successors are Christ's representatives on earth? What about ALL the Apostles, weren't they Jesus' representatives? Peter is the LEADER of these representatives BUT they all represented equally with the Power of the Spirit. a LEADER is very prominent and important but not a replacement for the originator. In Matthew, Jesus singles Peter out for a LEADERSHIP ROLE. Jesus spoke to ALL the Apostles when he told them he would send "The HELPER" The Spirit. Did Jesus send LESS of the spirit to the rest of the Apostles?
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Post by Bogus0Pomp on Jun 22, 2021 10:11:30 GMT -5
LOL What can I say? I take hair and grooming tips from Albert Einstein. (re: forum user 71's trolling post, forum post# 22930) On that point, Wale, it is true that I'm the "opposite" of Einstein. In a similar vein, I am the "opposite" of Einstein in that I was faithful to my partner and Einstein was not faithful to his wives. Incorrect. Membership in Mensa and the Dundee Society, a couple of patents and an "et. al." in about a dozen more tend to indicate some level of brilliance. Certainly not the level of Einstein, but also not "the opposite" i.e. feeble minded as was your implication.
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Post by burke on Jun 22, 2021 11:02:01 GMT -5
The church teaches that the pope is Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth. The Church teaches that, while he is elected by the College of Cardinals, he is actually chosen by the Holy Spirit. You should learn to swim before you jump into the deep end. You are sore because your "explanation" about giving up freedom to get comfortable falls flatYOU shouldn't take you negative feelings on having been shown you have traded SOME freedom to be comfortable as YOU see it with Canadian health and transfer to THIS topic! Now as to your comment above: "..In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. .." www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm
The Pope is the leader as commissioned by Christ BUT "The Bible says of Jesus that there is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12). There is only one mediator between God and men, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). We can now see that there is no biblical foundation for claiming to be a representative of Christ on earth" www.gotquestions.org/vicar-of-Christ.html
Can YOU provide a scriptural citation that shows Jesus specifically stating Peter and his successors are Christ's representatives on earth? What about ALL the Apostles, weren't they Jesus' representatives? Peter is the LEADER of these representatives BUT they all represented equally with the Power of the Spirit. a LEADER is very prominent and important but not a replacement for the originator. In Matthew, Jesus singles Peter out for a LEADERSHIP ROLE. Jesus spoke to ALL the Apostles when he told them he would send "The HELPER" The Spirit. Did Jesus send LESS of the spirit to the rest of the Apostles?
First, I am not "sore" and didn't give up any freedom. In fact I am extremely happy and content with my choices. What you consider a loss of freedom I view as additional freedom, freedom from worrying about what happens to my family if I get seriously ill. I don't have to deprive my children and grandchildren of their inheritance, nor to I have to worry about their financial well being should they become seriously ill. >Can YOU provide a scriptural citation that shows Jesus specifically stating Peter and his successors are Christ's representatives on earth? I am glad you asked, but first let's clear up your misuse of Acts 4:12. No one claims that the pope saves anyone, but I admire the spin you are putting on it. Creative to say the least. Anyway, Let's explore the Scriptures of the question of the succession of Peter:
Was Peter the chosen head of the Apostles? He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’ Matthew 16: 15-19. It is obvious that Jesus was building the Church around the Apostles, but Peter had primacy over them.
At the end of Matthew's gospel he gives the Apostles their commission and give a promise: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’ Matthew 28:19-20. Not only does that tell me that Jesus will guide the Church to the end of the age, but the bishops are the successors of the Apostles and the pope of Peter in particular. Now Jesus added another promise: ‘If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. John 14:15-17, 26. But that begs the question, did Jesus mean that it extended beyond the life of the Apostles? If the charism was passed down how do we know who is real? The authority of the Apostles was passed on by the laying on of hands. Now during those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution of food. And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, ‘It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait at tables. Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task, while we, for our part, will devote ourselves to prayer and to serving the word.’ What they said pleased the whole community, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. Acts 6:1-6. Here we have the first deacons. We only need to see what happened after the Reformation to those that split from the Church. Within 50 years there were myriad denomination all with different beliefs. But how do we know that the Catholic Church got it right? The two Churches with Apostolic Succession are the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. We split in the 11th century and did talk to one another for 800 years, yet the core beliefs are the same. Further evidence of the laying on of hands: Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders. 1 Timothy 4:14 Again, Never lay hands (ordain in some translations) hastily on anyone, or you may be sharing in the misdeeds of others; keep yourself pure. 1 Timothy 5:22
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2021 12:34:33 GMT -5
First, I am not "sore" and didn't give up any freedom. In fact I am extremely happy and content with my choices. What you consider a loss of freedom I view as additional freedom, freedom from worrying about what happens to my family if I get seriously ill. I don't have to deprive my children and grandchildren of their inheritance, nor to I have to worry about their financial well being should they become seriously ill. When the government gets in a negative financial position OR decides they don't have enough money and take MORE from you or decide to cut services, come back and chat it up.
>Can YOU provide a scriptural citation that shows Jesus specifically stating Peter and his successors are Christ's representatives on earth? I am glad you asked, but first let's clear up your misuse of Acts 4:12. No one claims that the pope saves anyone, but I admire the spin you are putting on it. Creative to say the least. I didn't cite Acts 4:12Anyway, Let's explore the Scriptures of the question of the succession of Peter: Was Peter the chosen head of the Apostles? He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’ Matthew 16: 15-19. It is obvious that Jesus was building the Church around the Apostles, but Peter had primacy over them. This is correct.At the end of Matthew's gospel he gives the Apostles their commission and give a promise: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’ Matthew 28:19-20. Not only does that tell me that Jesus will guide the Church to the end of the age, but the bishops are the successors of the Apostles and the pope of Peter in particular. This does NOT say that. It states Jesus will be with his Church until the end of the age. Nothing in THIs scripture states as you stated here.
Now Jesus added another promise: ‘If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. John 14:15-17, 26. But that begs the question, did Jesus mean that it extended beyond the life of the Apostles? If the charism was passed down how do we know who is real? The authority of the Apostles was passed on by the laying on of hands. THIS is correct as also through Apostolic Succession. Now during those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution of food. And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, ‘It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait at tables. Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task, while we, for our part, will devote ourselves to prayer and to serving the word.’ What they said pleased the whole community, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. Acts 6:1-6. Here we have the first deacons. We only need to see what happened after the Reformation to those that split from the Church. Within 50 years there were myriad denomination all with different beliefs. But how do we know that the Catholic Church got it right? The two Churches with Apostolic Succession are the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. We split in the 11th century and did talk to one another for 800 years, yet the core beliefs are the same. Further evidence of the laying on of hands: Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders. 1 Timothy 4:14 we KNOW about the laying on of hands but NOTHING of Pope specifically as you stated in your earlier post! Again, Never lay hands (ordain in some translations) hastily on anyone, or you may be sharing in the misdeeds of others; keep yourself pure. 1 Timothy 5:22 Yes But can you cite a SCRIPTURAL citation the the POPE is CHRIST's representative on earth as YOU described in your earlier post. The laying on of hands is a continuation of membership into the priesthood or Apostleship if you will, the laying on of hands allows one to continue the work of the Apostles. The laying of hands, as far as scripture goes doesn't specifically state a connection to a pontificate or an equalizing of that pontificate for representing Jesus on earth singly. I ask AGAIN In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. .."
www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm this is a Catholic site
What about ALL the Apostles, weren't they Jesus' representatives? Peter is the LEADER of these representatives BUT they all represented equally with the Power of the Spirit. The Pope remains the Leader of the Church, of those who succeeded the apostles but his leadership is does NOT equate to being CHRIST'S representative on earth BECAUSE that would cheapen the succession of the OTHER Apostles and those who succeeded the others. were the Apostles LESS endowed or less in significance when they went out?
Can you cite SPECIIFIC passages that states Jesus told Peter something like " You will stand in for me OR YOU will represent me until it's time for YOUR successor to do so..." something along those lines. The Apostles represented Jesus, were succeeded by others with the laying on of hands, Peter WAS their leader and his LEADERSHIP was succeeded by the successive Popes. You did not scripturally cite that argument, although you posted some scripture that didnt
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2021 12:53:35 GMT -5
On that point, Wale, it is true that I'm the "opposite" of Einstein. In a similar vein, I am the "opposite" of Einstein in that I was faithful to my partner and Einstein was not faithful to his wives. BUT you and your partner existed in a distortion, Einstein existed normally. Incorrect. Membership in Mensa and the Dundee Society, a couple of patents and an "et. al." in about a dozen more tend to indicate some level of brilliance. Certainly not the level of Einstein, but also not "the opposite" i.e. feeble minded as was your implication.Membership brings you nowhere NEAR Einstein's brilliance, you partially DID admit, but also doesn't address your ongoing confusion!
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Post by Bogus0Pomp on Jun 22, 2021 13:57:30 GMT -5
On that point, Wale, it is true that I'm the "opposite" of Einstein. In a similar vein, I am the "opposite" of Einstein in that I was faithful to my partner and Einstein was not faithful to his wives. That's just unadulterated gibberish. My partner and I existed in the normal, Einsteinian, four dimensional, real world. Incorrect. Membership in Mensa and the Dundee Society, a couple of patents and an "et. al." in about a dozen more tend to indicate some level of brilliance. Certainly not the level of Einstein, but also not "the opposite" i.e. feeble minded as was your implication. That little mess of words does nothing to alter the fact that you are mistaken when you imply that I lack brilliance. The aforementioned memberships and patents are a recognition of a level of brilliance that is well above average.
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Post by burke on Jun 22, 2021 14:23:32 GMT -5
First, I am not "sore" and didn't give up any freedom. In fact I am extremely happy and content with my choices. What you consider a loss of freedom I view as additional freedom, freedom from worrying about what happens to my family if I get seriously ill. I don't have to deprive my children and grandchildren of their inheritance, nor to I have to worry about their financial well being should they become seriously ill. When the government gets in a negative financial position OR decides they don't have enough money and take MORE from you or decide to cut services, come back and chat it up.
>Can YOU provide a scriptural citation that shows Jesus specifically stating Peter and his successors are Christ's representatives on earth? I am glad you asked, but first let's clear up your misuse of Acts 4:12. No one claims that the pope saves anyone, but I admire the spin you are putting on it. Creative to say the least. I didn't cite Acts 4:12Anyway, Let's explore the Scriptures of the question of the succession of Peter: Was Peter the chosen head of the Apostles? He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’ Matthew 16: 15-19. It is obvious that Jesus was building the Church around the Apostles, but Peter had primacy over them. This is correct.At the end of Matthew's gospel he gives the Apostles their commission and give a promise: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’ Matthew 28:19-20. Not only does that tell me that Jesus will guide the Church to the end of the age, but the bishops are the successors of the Apostles and the pope of Peter in particular. This does NOT say that. It states Jesus will be with his Church until the end of the age. Nothing in THIs scripture states as you stated here.
Now Jesus added another promise: ‘If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. John 14:15-17, 26. But that begs the question, did Jesus mean that it extended beyond the life of the Apostles? If the charism was passed down how do we know who is real? The authority of the Apostles was passed on by the laying on of hands. THIS is correct as also through Apostolic Succession. Now during those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution of food. And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, ‘It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait at tables. Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task, while we, for our part, will devote ourselves to prayer and to serving the word.’ What they said pleased the whole community, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. Acts 6:1-6. Here we have the first deacons. We only need to see what happened after the Reformation to those that split from the Church. Within 50 years there were myriad denomination all with different beliefs. But how do we know that the Catholic Church got it right? The two Churches with Apostolic Succession are the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. We split in the 11th century and did talk to one another for 800 years, yet the core beliefs are the same. Further evidence of the laying on of hands: Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders. 1 Timothy 4:14 we KNOW about the laying on of hands but NOTHING of Pope specifically as you stated in your earlier post! Again, Never lay hands (ordain in some translations) hastily on anyone, or you may be sharing in the misdeeds of others; keep yourself pure. 1 Timothy 5:22 Yes But can you cite a SCRIPTURAL citation the the POPE is CHRIST's representative on earth as YOU described in your earlier post. The laying on of hands is a continuation of membership into the priesthood or Apostleship if you will, the laying on of hands allows one to continue the work of the Apostles. The laying of hands, as far as scripture goes doesn't specifically state a connection to a pontificate or an equalizing of that pontificate for representing Jesus on earth singly. I ask AGAIN In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. .."
www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm this is a Catholic site
What about ALL the Apostles, weren't they Jesus' representatives? Peter is the LEADER of these representatives BUT they all represented equally with the Power of the Spirit. The Pope remains the Leader of the Church, of those who succeeded the apostles but his leadership is does NOT equate to being CHRIST'S representative on earth BECAUSE that would cheapen the succession of the OTHER Apostles and those who succeeded the others. were the Apostles LESS endowed or less in significance when they went out?
Can you cite SPECIIFIC passages that states Jesus told Peter something like " You will stand in for me OR YOU will represent me until it's time for YOUR successor to do so..." something along those lines. The Apostles represented Jesus, were succeeded by others with the laying on of hands, Peter WAS their leader and his LEADERSHIP was succeeded by the successive Popes. You did not scripturally cite that argument, although you posted some scripture that didnt
> When the government gets in a negative financial position OR decides they don't have enough money and take MORE from you or decide to cut services, come back and chat it up.
We have been doing this for 50 years and while services have been adjusted, some cut back and some added, we still have universal healthcare at a very reasonable price.
> I didn't cite Acts 4:12
Reread your post of 5 hours ago, you wrote: "The Bible says of Jesus that there is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12).
> This does NOT say that. It states Jesus will be with his Church until the end of the age. Nothing in THIS scripture states as you stated here.
Okay, what do you believe Jesus meant when he said that?
> we KNOW about the laying on of hands but NOTHING of Pope specifically as you stated in your earlier post!
Okay, where does the ultimate authority, given Jesus' promise, rest in your understanding?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2021 15:25:56 GMT -5
Yes But can you cite a SCRIPTURAL citation the the POPE is CHRIST's representative on earth as YOU described in your earlier post. The laying on of hands is a continuation of membership into the priesthood or Apostleship if you will, the laying on of hands allows one to continue the work of the Apostles. The laying of hands, as far as scripture goes doesn't specifically state a connection to a pontificate or an equalizing of that pontificate for representing Jesus on earth singly. I ask AGAIN In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. .."
www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm this is a Catholic site
What about ALL the Apostles, weren't they Jesus' representatives? Peter is the LEADER of these representatives BUT they all represented equally with the Power of the Spirit. The Pope remains the Leader of the Church, of those who succeeded the apostles but his leadership is does NOT equate to being CHRIST'S representative on earth BECAUSE that would cheapen the succession of the OTHER Apostles and those who succeeded the others. were the Apostles LESS endowed or less in significance when they went out?
Can you cite SPECIIFIC passages that states Jesus told Peter something like " You will stand in for me OR YOU will represent me until it's time for YOUR successor to do so..." something along those lines. The Apostles represented Jesus, were succeeded by others with the laying on of hands, Peter WAS their leader and his LEADERSHIP was succeeded by the successive Popes. You did not scripturally cite that argument, although you posted some scripture that didnt
> When the government gets in a negative financial position OR decides they don't have enough money and take MORE from you or decide to cut services, come back and chat it up.
We have been doing this for 50 years and while services have been adjusted, some cut back and some added, we still have universal healthcare at a very reasonable price.
> I didn't cite Acts 4:12
Reread your post of 5 hours ago, you wrote: "The Bible says of Jesus that there is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12).
> This does NOT say that. It states Jesus will be with his Church until the end of the age. Nothing in THIS scripture states as you stated here.
Okay, what do you believe Jesus meant when he said that?
> we KNOW about the laying on of hands but NOTHING of Pope specifically as you stated in your earlier post!
Okay, where does the ultimate authority, given Jesus' promise, rest in your understanding?
We have been doing this for 50 years and while services have been adjusted, some cut back and some added, we still have universal healthcare at a very reasonable price. You say you are "Student" of history, then you should KNOW that once something is instituted , it doesn't go back or withdraws. The ONLY direction is always UP: taxes, Programs etc. Now YOU may not have experienced the downturn....YET but it does come as HISTORY has shown that locally and in many countries (Great depression, recession n 2008, etc). Maybe YOU never are caught in that down turn and hopefully not, BUT when those who DO get caught in it where the government MUST make drastic cuts or DRASTICALLY increase costs and taxes for the SANE services? What do you tell your Grandchildren or on down the line?
Reread your post of 5 hours ago, you wrote: "The Bible says of Jesus that there is no other name by which men can be saved (Acts 4:12). CORRECT and there is NO connection to being saved by the NAME of Jesus and The Pope as earthly representative. Let's take ONE verse from scripture:
Luke 10:17 ESV The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” Notice the GROUP said of stating IN the name of Jesus. it means Jesus bestowed his authority on THEM, not a group represented by ONE person speaking Jesus name. Speaking in Jesus name means invoking HIS SPIRIT in the same manner Jesus through his Spirit descended on the followers at Pentecost to EMPOWER THEM ( plural) to continue HIS work IN HIS NAME, through the power of the Spirit. Peter is the LEADER of this group and will have other LEADERS succeed him.....to LEAD the CHURCH which is endowed by the Spirit. CAN YOU PRODUCE ANY SCRIPTURAL VERSE saying something CLOSE to Peter you will represent me on earth? The Church is to be the guiding force, with a LEADER for sure, but not as you stated and cant support. 1 Timothy 3:15 RSV 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
> This does NOT say that. It states Jesus will be with his Church until the end of the age. Nothing in THIS scripture states as you stated here. Okay, what do you believe Jesus meant when he said that?
It means that Jesus, Through the Spirit will remain overlooking and overseeing the Church keeping Jesus' promise of sending The Helper, the comforter to empower his Apostles (plural) and successors to continue to , as Jesus said, do GREATER WORKS than Jesus.
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