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Post by Bogus0Pomp on Mar 22, 2021 13:40:23 GMT -5
I want someone to give me one good reason to support an ideology and/or a religion that wants me not only dead, but tortured for eternity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 14:59:13 GMT -5
I say that ALL Scripture is IMSPIRED of God and The Bible says what it means Hi Wale,
I agree, all Scripture is inspired by God, but is it all literally true? For example, did God create everything in seven 24-hour days?
Since we don't know that at the beginning there were 24 hour days, until TIME was also begun by God, I cant say. The Bible doesn't say a day in the beginning was 24 hours. MANY make the mistake of trying to impose finite human thinking onto the OMNISCIENCE of God
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Post by justin on Jun 6, 2021 17:01:44 GMT -5
A good question. I suppose for the same reason that the sin of running a red light is differentiated from the sin of speeding down the highway. Both are moving violations of a vehicle, but recognized differently by a court of law. There's a distinction made, but not a lot of difference.
Hi Justin,
I'm not sure that catches the drift of my question. Perhaps I should try to put it another way. In your previous post you implied that homosexual sex and heterosexual sex outside marriage were wrong for the same reason (sex outside marriage is wrong). However, is there another layer to this? Is homosexual sex outside marriage intrinsically more sinful than heterosexual sex?
The Church can no more marry a divorced person than it can a homosexual. Should there be "layers" beyond that? What purpose is served? I'd suggest that if every time you get behind the wheel of your speeding vehicle and you are running through red lights due to a critically ill child in need of urgent attention, that you get sirens and flashing lights on your vehicle.
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Post by argy on Jun 7, 2021 7:09:35 GMT -5
Hi Argy,
The morality of a given action does not change. It might be necessary for the common good to kill homosexuals caught in sexual activity, but it was still immoral.
Hi Burke,
So why does the OT recommend the practice of killing homosexuals?
I think that is one of the passages that demonstrates the either (1) the bible is not divinely inspired, or (2) god is immoral.
Just read the words in the text. I don't think there can be any doubt that, at a minimum, if he didn't actually command it, that god supported/endorsed the killing of homosexuals. He could, after all, have said "thou shalt not kill homosexuals".
I agree. I think the bible (especially the OT) is sort of like a bunch of camp fire anecdotes. Lots of exaggeration and hyperbole based on mundane tribal history. We have moved beyond this and evolved far better moral norms.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 7:13:54 GMT -5
Hi Argy,
The morality of a given action does not change. It might be necessary for the common good to kill homosexuals caught in sexual activity, but it was still immoral.
Hi Burke,
So why does the OT recommend the practice of killing homosexuals?
I think that is one of the passages that demonstrates the either (1) the bible is not divinely inspired, or (2) god is immoral.
Just read the words in the text. I don't think there can be any doubt that, at a minimum, if he didn't actually command it, that god supported/endorsed the killing of homosexuals. He could, after all, have said "thou shalt not kill homosexuals".
I agree. I think the bible (especially the OT) is sort of like a bunch of camp fire anecdotes. Lots of exaggeration and hyperbole based on mundane tribal history. We have moved beyond this and evolved far better moral norms.
Those last two conclusions are based on conditions originating from YOU, as to how YOU think God ought to proceed by YOUR criteria
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Post by argy on Jun 7, 2021 7:15:11 GMT -5
The Church can no more marry a divorced person than it can a homosexual. Should there be "layers" beyond that? What purpose is served?
Why can't the church marry homosexuals? I know that might sound trite, but I think it is a profound question.
I think I also need clarification on an allied topic. If the sole reason the church condemns homosexual sex is because of the "marriage problem", does it accept that homosexual sex between married homosexuals is okay? If not, why not?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 9:42:08 GMT -5
The Church can no more marry a divorced person than it can a homosexual. Should there be "layers" beyond that? What purpose is served?
Why can't the church marry homosexuals? I know that might sound trite, but I think it is a profound question.
I think I also need clarification on an allied topic. If the sole reason the church condemns homosexual sex is because of the "marriage problem", does it accept that homosexual sex between married homosexuals is okay? If not, why not?
If you read the Scriptures, then you know it specifically condemns homosexuality and is part of the Doctrine, therefore the Church must conform to Doctrine specifically spelled out. Marriage also is defined in the Scriptures as between a man and woman.
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Post by justin on Jun 7, 2021 11:49:34 GMT -5
The Church can no more marry a divorced person than it can a homosexual. Should there be "layers" beyond that? What purpose is served?
Why can't the church marry homosexuals? I know that might sound trite, but I think it is a profound question.
For the same reason you don't recognize an Oak tree as a fish. It simply doesn't fit the definition given to us by God. Part of that definition is that marriage is an indissoluble union between one man and one woman until death. The Church has been tremendously stretched on this matter. The most recognizable instance was with Henry VIII, he wanted the Church to disolve his marriage so that he could remarry. The Church said that marriage is God's law, not Church's and he was currently in a valid marriage, ergo there was nothing the Church could do. All the Church could do is recognize whether or not his marriage was valid. That's it. It could not say it was ok for Henry to leave a valid marriage and enter into another one. As a result, the Church lost the entire country of England and many people were killed for not letting Henry VIII do as he pleased. In the eyes of the Church, a homosexual couple is no more married than Donald and Melania Trump are married. They may have a secular contract that they call a marriage, but it is not a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church. Same thing with Henry VIII's marriage to Anne Boleyn.
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Post by burke on Jun 7, 2021 12:30:14 GMT -5
Hi Argy,
The morality of a given action does not change. It might be necessary for the common good to kill homosexuals caught in sexual activity, but it was still immoral.
Hi Burke,
So why does the OT recommend the practice of killing homosexuals?
I think that is one of the passages that demonstrates the either (1) the bible is not divinely inspired, or (2) god is immoral.
That is only true if you believe that God dictated the Scriptures, sat down and said kill homosexual. He didn't. The Scriptures are inspired in the spiritual truth therein, not the historical word for word content.
Just read the words in the text. I don't think there can be any doubt that, at a minimum, if he didn't actually command it, that god supported/endorsed the killing of homosexuals. He could, after all, have said "thou shalt not kill homosexuals".
See above.
I agree. I think the bible (especially the OT) is sort of like a bunch of camp fire anecdotes. Lots of exaggeration and hyperbole based on mundane tribal history. We have moved beyond this and evolved far better moral norms.
Far better moral norms, really? I find it ironic that in this post-Christian era that things like human trafficking have flourished. In India, with the Covid crisis, one of the major concerns is with the trafficking of orphans. I get multiple scam calls and e-mails everyday. Sorry Argy, one could argue that your secular moral norms are worse with its belief in absolute relativism.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 13:25:25 GMT -5
Hi Argy,
The morality of a given action does not change. It might be necessary for the common good to kill homosexuals caught in sexual activity, but it was still immoral.
Hi Burke,
So why does the OT recommend the practice of killing homosexuals?
I think that is one of the passages that demonstrates the either (1) the bible is not divinely inspired, or (2) god is immoral.
Just read the words in the text. I don't think there can be any doubt that, at a minimum, if he didn't actually command it, that god supported/endorsed the killing of homosexuals. He could, after all, have said "thou shalt not kill homosexuals".
I agree. I think the bible (especially the OT) is sort of like a bunch of camp fire anecdotes. Lots of exaggeration and hyperbole based on mundane tribal history. We have moved beyond this and evolved far better moral norms.
OK so on what set of principles do YOU or are WE to base what is right and wrong?
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Post by argy on Jun 7, 2021 21:40:44 GMT -5
Why can't the church marry homosexuals? I know that might sound trite, but I think it is a profound question.
I think I also need clarification on an allied topic. If the sole reason the church condemns homosexual sex is because of the "marriage problem", does it accept that homosexual sex between married homosexuals is okay? If not, why not?
If you read the Scriptures, then you know it specifically condemns homosexuality and is part of the Doctrine, therefore the Church must conform to Doctrine specifically spelled out.
Scriptures also say to kill homosexuals. If you can ignore that, surely you can ditch the rest of the homophobic stuff?
The bible says it can be between a man and multiple women.
It seems to me that you're picking and choosing which passages to endorse. And not with much consistency.
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Post by argy on Jun 7, 2021 21:50:29 GMT -5
Why can't the church marry homosexuals? I know that might sound trite, but I think it is a profound question.
For the same reason you don't recognize an Oak tree as a fish. It simply doesn't fit the definition given to us by God. Part of that definition is that marriage is an indissoluble union between one man and one woman until death.
That's not the whole story. God endorses polygamy, so the one-man-one-woman notion doesn't really apply.
It also says, Deut 22:13, that if your wife is found not to be a virgin she shall be stoned to death. Although it complies with the "until death do you part" bit that's not a very nice way of getting rid of a wife!
I am lucky in that I have been happily married to the one woman for decades, but I think it is cruel to force people who have fallen out of love to remain together. I also think it's wrong to force a woman to remain married to a man who beats her or treats her cruelly. If morality is based on wellbeing (a view I endorse) then the prohibition against divorce and remarriage is immoral.
That's fair enough. The church and the state have different definitions of marriage.
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Post by argy on Jun 7, 2021 21:54:26 GMT -5
OK so on what set of principles do YOU or are WE to base what is right and wrong?
I think the best basis for morality is well being. I think that anyone but a psychopath has an instinctive understanding of what well being is. It is what makes you reject the bible's endorsement of killing homosexuals, biblical laws that enable you to beat a slave to death, etc..
What do you think your basis of morality is?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 22:28:28 GMT -5
If you read the Scriptures, then you know it specifically condemns homosexuality and is part of the Doctrine, therefore the Church must conform to Doctrine specifically spelled out.
Scriptures also say to kill homosexuals. If you can ignore that, surely you can ditch the rest of the homophobic stuff?
The bible says it can be between a man and multiple women.
It seems to me that you're picking and choosing which passages to endorse. And not with much consistency.
You reveal a superficial application with barely knowing the topic
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 22:31:16 GMT -5
OK so on what set of principles do YOU or are WE to base what is right and wrong?
I think the best basis for morality is well being. I think that anyone but a psychopath has an instinctive understanding of what well being is. It is what makes you reject the bible's endorsement of killing homosexuals, biblical laws that enable you to beat a slave to death, etc..
What do you think your basis of morality is?
We KNOW that the basis for morality comes by ABSOLUTES from HE who brought all existence into the world. it does NOT come from the individuals because THEN everyone is their own standard of morality and that brings clashes and conflict.
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Post by argy on Jun 7, 2021 22:47:16 GMT -5
Scriptures also say to kill homosexuals. If you can ignore that, surely you can ditch the rest of the homophobic stuff?
The bible says it can be between a man and multiple women.
It seems to me that you're picking and choosing which passages to endorse. And not with much consistency.
You reveal a superficial application with barely knowing the topic
Please educate me. Answer the question.
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