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Post by Bogus0Pomp on Mar 22, 2021 13:40:23 GMT -5
I want someone to give me one good reason to support an ideology and/or a religion that wants me not only dead, but tortured for eternity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 17:20:48 GMT -5
I found this interesting Pascal's Wager Blais Pascal was a 17th century French mathematician, physicist, inventor, philosopher, writer and Catholic theologian. The wager uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233): God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up You must wager (it is not optional) Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain. Any thoughts?
The flaw with Pascal's wager is that it assumes only two possible outcomes. There are many religions, each of which has a different idea of god. Which one should be worshipped? If you worship the wrong one, you risk offending the real one and being consigned to hell for eternity.
Even if there is no god, worshipping has its costs. You risk wasting all the effort, time wasting and sacrifice devoted to worship at the expense of living a more fulfilling life. So there is potentially something to lose by worshipping a false god.
Also, if there is a god, he would see through any phoney attempt to garner favour from insincere worship.
Are YOU smarter than Albert Einstein? "..The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations..." - Albert Einstein
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Post by argy on Jun 5, 2021 18:54:08 GMT -5
How does that relate to Pascal's wager?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 19:33:11 GMT -5
How does that relate to Pascal's wager? It doesn't BUT it shows that one of the most BRILLIANT minds across time, universally acknowledged, recognizes at least a higher hand in the unfolding of existence and a force behind it!
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Post by argy on Jun 5, 2021 20:29:30 GMT -5
How does that relate to Pascal's wager? It doesn't BUT it shows that one of the most BRILLIANT minds across time, universally acknowledged, recognizes at least a higher hand in the unfolding of existence and a force behind it!
Einstein was not a believer in the existence of your god. Or any god, for that matter. He was merely expressing ow a sense of wonder, not claiming there is a god.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 22:08:06 GMT -5
It doesn't BUT it shows that one of the most BRILLIANT minds across time, universally acknowledged, recognizes at least a higher hand in the unfolding of existence and a force behind it!
Einstein was not a believer in the existence of your god. Or any god, for that matter. He was merely expressing ow a sense of wonder, not claiming there is a god.
Nowhere did I say Einstein believed in God BUT his comments recognize a hand, a force, an initiator of existence and stated our minds are too small to grasp. HE UNDERSTOOD, you don't and are not as bright as Einstein .
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Post by argy on Jun 5, 2021 22:22:47 GMT -5
I'm sure Einstein would see through the Watchmaker analogy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 22:34:39 GMT -5
I'm sure Einstein would see through the Watchmaker analogy. NO as he used a similar analogy of a child in the library. YOU SHOULD actually READ what he said
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Post by argy on Jun 5, 2021 23:07:16 GMT -5
I certain Einstein did not mean it to be "watchmaker" argument, but you are taking it that way.
Einstein was expressing awe about the natural world. It would be wrong to draw an inference that he believed in a god from the quote you presented.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 6:12:12 GMT -5
I certain Einstein did not mean it to be "watchmaker" argument, but you are taking it that way. Einstein was expressing awe about the natural world. It would be wrong to draw an inference that he believed in a god from the quote you presented. NO, Einstein was not expressing awe. You are reading NOT what is there but what you wish.
EINSTEIN - The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations..." - Albert Einstein
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Post by argy on Jun 6, 2021 6:45:31 GMT -5
I'll leave you to it.
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Post by burke on Jun 6, 2021 7:43:35 GMT -5
Hi Argy,
You are taking the whole thing out of context. The passage says, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them." Lev 20:13. It does not say, "If a man is attracted to a male as to a woman . . .." The problem with looking at this from a 21st century perspective is that we have no idea what the impact of homosexual behaviour had on a small agrarian community. What the law did in a small community is give a gay person second thoughts of becoming sexually active. In a discussion in another forum Russ Gold, an orthodox Jew, said that there was no record of any homosexual being killed.
Hi Burke,
I guess what you're saying is that morality depends on circumstances.
The theory of evolution suggests that the ubiquity of homosexuality (it has been found in almost every species studied, from humans to horses to fruit flies) confers an evolutionary advantage. There is a very good Ted Talk that goes into this in detail. Suffice to say, the descendants of large families with a preponderance of male offspring fared better when one of them was a homosexual. There are all sorts of reasons for this, one of which was the fact that they tended to be more nurturing. (A testosterone filled household is counter-productive.)
In other words, as counter-intuitive as it might be to you, homosexuality actually benefits the reproductive success of a gene line.
That example really illustrates the point I was making above. Namely that morality is flexible. Moral "good" depends on circumstances, and we have a moral compass that is independent of the bible. In fact, our moral compasses allow us to be critical of biblical attitudes to homosexuals, adultery, rape, slavery, etc.. Anyone today trying to implement laws based on the commandments of the Old Testament would be run out of town.
Hi Argy,
The morality of a given action does not change. It might be necessary for the common good to kill homosexuals caught in sexual activity, but it was still immoral. Sometimes societies have to make tough choices. Unfortunately those choices, made in moments of crisis, become the norm.
On a related note, did God actually command that homosexual be killed? You have to remember that the Pentateuch was complied 900 years after the fact. How does one justify the actions of one's ancestors? God commanded it. It has been the mantra of societies throughout history to fire up the troops etc. The genocides and horrific actions of the OT was a product of the times, capture a city after a siege, put everybody to the sword. So, 900 years later the question is, why did we do that? Answer: God commanded it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 8:10:16 GMT -5
Hi Burke,
I guess what you're saying is that morality depends on circumstances.
The theory of evolution suggests that the ubiquity of homosexuality (it has been found in almost every species studied, from humans to horses to fruit flies) confers an evolutionary advantage. There is a very good Ted Talk that goes into this in detail. Suffice to say, the descendants of large families with a preponderance of male offspring fared better when one of them was a homosexual. There are all sorts of reasons for this, one of which was the fact that they tended to be more nurturing. (A testosterone filled household is counter-productive.)
In other words, as counter-intuitive as it might be to you, homosexuality actually benefits the reproductive success of a gene line.
That example really illustrates the point I was making above. Namely that morality is flexible. Moral "good" depends on circumstances, and we have a moral compass that is independent of the bible. In fact, our moral compasses allow us to be critical of biblical attitudes to homosexuals, adultery, rape, slavery, etc.. Anyone today trying to implement laws based on the commandments of the Old Testament would be run out of town.
Hi Argy,
The morality of a given action does not change. It might be necessary for the common good to kill homosexuals caught in sexual activity, but it was still immoral. Sometimes societies have to make tough choices. Unfortunately those choices, made in moments of crisis, become the norm.
On a related note, did God actually command that homosexual be killed? You have to remember that the Pentateuch was complied 900 years after the fact. How does one justify the actions of one's ancestors? God commanded it. It has been the mantra of societies throughout history to fire up the troops etc. The genocides and horrific actions of the OT was a product of the times, capture a city after a siege, put everybody to the sword. So, 900 years later the question is, why did we do that? Answer: God commanded it.
2 Timothy 3:16 RSV 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
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Post by burke on Jun 6, 2021 10:20:09 GMT -5
Hi Argy,
The morality of a given action does not change. It might be necessary for the common good to kill homosexuals caught in sexual activity, but it was still immoral. Sometimes societies have to make tough choices. Unfortunately those choices, made in moments of crisis, become the norm.
On a related note, did God actually command that homosexual be killed? You have to remember that the Pentateuch was complied 900 years after the fact. How does one justify the actions of one's ancestors? God commanded it. It has been the mantra of societies throughout history to fire up the troops etc. The genocides and horrific actions of the OT was a product of the times, capture a city after a siege, put everybody to the sword. So, 900 years later the question is, why did we do that? Answer: God commanded it.
2 Timothy 3:16 RSV 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Hi Wale,
When you say that what you understand regarding the literal meaning of the scriptures?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 10:52:55 GMT -5
2 Timothy 3:16 RSV 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Hi Wale,
When you say that what you understand regarding the literal meaning of the scriptures?
I say that ALL Scripture is IMSPIRED of God and The Bible says what it means
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Post by burke on Jun 6, 2021 13:41:30 GMT -5
Hi Wale,
When you say that what you understand regarding the literal meaning of the scriptures?
I say that ALL Scripture is IMSPIRED of God and The Bible says what it means Hi Wale,
I agree, all Scripture is inspired by God, but is it all literally true? For example, did God create everything in seven 24-hour days?
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